Share Background Report Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Phone: View phone number Age: 84 Gender: Female The process which Christ Jesus taught was not kicking someone out. Friend your comment made me weep. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. I think its the same for followers of RC Sproul as well (and John MacArthur). So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? Then, the preacher gets up and delivers a sermon with a title such as, How to Have a Successful Marriage.. R.C. They absolutely cannot be shamed, manipulated, coerced, convinced, or reasoned into sobriety. So let me start. @ Deb: I got what Deborah meant when she said addicts cannot be helped, but the other lady who replied to her took that remark the wrong way. While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18. "You're not drunk if you can lean on the pulpit without holding on." I am sure RC2 was given all types of preferential treatment due his being related to RC. Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. To seek to return to the Lord means to leave behind all of those temptations that cause one to fall and to no longer go where one is tempted. It should also be noted that removing someone from the church, for a time, does not mean they are declared an unbeliever. Even finds reasons for crying out loud. I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! This article sits in the context of many others on TWW documenting the organisation Mr Sproul has built and the ways in which he sees fit to run it. Ive read a lot of pushback to AAs all or nothing approach recently. My uncle was a drunk driver. Father S, the RCC priest when we did RCIA, said that in the early church when somebody sinned they had to go around individually and confess and reconcile each with everybody, and that this caused problems in and of itself. Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. Theres even less agreement on the extend to which an alcoholic is responsible for his behaviour whilst drunk. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. Someone else mentioned Galatians 6. I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. DUI/DWI is a crime. Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. Family (1) Trivia (1) Christian theologian. Why not? RC Sproul Jr was facing up to 7 years in prison and $21,000 in fines. At what point, under what circumstances, under what conditions, is it okay for us to remove the drunkard from the church and it not be Dark Ages practices.. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. She's given me permission to share her letter and you can use it as you deem fit. I have been on the receiving end of that sense of entitlement, & preferential treatment of alcohol over humans many times. job loss). I know you have suffered from people in your family with this disease, and there is controversy about responsibility versus the helplessness of illness; Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. It would be unethical for me to do so. But to take that info and post it here? As the kid of an alcoholic & as a (former) wife who had her husband arrested (& convicted) for drunk driving I have to admit my patience with problem drinkers is very very thin because of the levels of devastation they inflict on others. keggers). They were fine with either term but actually preferred alky. So in deference to their preferences its what Ive used ever since then. (He is not driving) For myself, since I do not know the other persons circumstances, I have no plans to undercut what someone says by alleging that they appear to have been hurt in some way. Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. His daughter, Shannon, born with Lissencephaly,died in October, 2014 at the age of 15. Do you realise how offensive that is? Ill be praying for you and your circle. I then got entirely away from that direction and went into radiology. Sproul Jr. has done. Sproul, theologian, pastor, and founder of Ligonier Ministries, died on December 14, 2017, at the age of 78, after being hospitalized due to complications R.C. 2. Might be the only justice his victims get and Im sure that his church and family may actually get some help while hes in county lockup. If sharing these ghastly pictures will convince someone not to drink and drive, I will be so grateful! This!! Thank you. is obviously angry and much of it is rightly so. And it made us see that the pain we had experienced with our oldest son could be used for good.href=#comment-329312 title=Go to comment of this author>Velour: Your situation reminds us that there are excuses and there are reasons and your real anxiety over your daughters illness was a REASON, not an excuse for medicating .. you were right to get help and thank God you did. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? Those cannot be used as an excuse. And lots and lots of other things that are common problems in alcoholics. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. It just sounds creepy to me. (King relates this in the autobiographical first half of his nonfiction book On Writing. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. "Will the SBC Be Able to Continue to Fund Costly Yet Necessary Sex Abuse Reform in a Transparent Fashion?" But -I think you are over-selling non-church treatment. From the time I was a kid up until my early 30s, I saw various psychiatrists and a psychologist or two along the way. He was a success story. @ refugee: Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. Gail wrote: Here is what he REALLY said. The responsibility of a pastor/leader is FAR greater, not less. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree. A commenter from Spinderella Sproul says: I attended seminary with Jr. when Dad was teaching at RTS. I have heard that alcoholism which begins as a reaction to another issue, can become itself an issue as large and consuming as the original one. She believes that alcoholics/addicts should be kicked out of the church, and that H.U.G. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Thanks for sharing your journey with us here too. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. Barbara said that H.U.G. People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. And the pile-on. Had therapy and continues to do so. No one can make him do that. I appreciate the work that you and Jeff Crippen do at A Cry for Justice. My FIL quit drinking, stayed sober 30 years. What does that mean? Many Christians are allowed to live a double life because we are afraid to confront. As a matter of fact, when a denomination refuses to ordain a particular person, that person can go start his own *denomination* and set himself up as its bishop and be quite successful at so doing. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329600. R.C. Robert Charles Sproulcalled by his parents R. C. Sproul IIIwas born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on February 13, 1939, the second child of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann Sproul. Im not incorrect. What a traumatic event. OK, where I live most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment. I already alluded to the fact that there is much more than the public is aware of. Velour, I said haha about the typo which the authors of this post had inadvertently made in the text of their post. He is now a wonderful father and husband. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. (aside from neurological difficulties that may come after an extended time period). I think its the same for followers of RC Sproul as well (and John MacArthur). I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. Its a sad world sometimes. I had to be treated for major clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants. Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. RC talks about drinking, suggests that if HE has a problem HE should abstain, but leaves the impression that we should mind our own business about others drinking and abuse. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. These evangelical arguments that its in the Bible and that settles it get very old. Agreed. I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. For many, if the self-med is alcohol or drugs or opioids, this requires medical help; and very likely psychiatric intervention and follow up also. Im sorry for all this, its just that fathers day was very hard for me this year. Do they criticize non-drinkers? View Esther Taylor Indianapolis I received a thank you today from someone who has just such a struggle, is a Christian, and lurks here. As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. and me: That is what I was responding to. As I quoted up the thread to Daisy, I have never said that R.C. Fuss. I took her post as saying if a guy is doing something unethical or that the Bible says disqualifies that person from a leadership position, then the guy should step down. Hell become a sober endorser of patriarchy. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. Any discussion that veers from the literal path is an attack. I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. That is odd. Its all about the name Sproul and his fathers personal influence over other ministers. And yes, God can do anything he wants. What may have not been apparent to you at the time is that RC Jr wasnt just driving recklessly with you in the car. i think of my agnostic relatives. It is surely a complex issue with no single cause. http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/State-AG-files-13-felony-counts-against-Contra-11220366.php. This includes parishioners suffering from alcoholism, or female parishioners suffering from a desire to read scripture in public. Whoa, what? RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? I would take it that an alcoholic would have that same experience if they went to the same sort of churches I did. Barbara wrote this response to H.U.G. People do terrible things. When and if the program successfully completed, I would have fewer reservations with a pastor returning to the pulpit, as long as other behaviors are not present. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. I thought she was referring to a professed believer who would not repent, but I may have been reading between her lines. Barbara made a nasty comment to H.U.G. The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! I need to be careful to look to Scripture for my measure of Gods Law for sin, not taking the measure from what people and tradition may say sin is. But I also fully agree with you. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? 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